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  • Writer's pictureChris Templeton

Joseph Roccosalvo Interview

Updated: Jan 23, 2021

I had the privilege of interviewing author, Joseph Roccosalvo about what has led him to become a prolific author. In this interview he discusses the impact his mother, education and religious exploration have had on his writing.

Be sure to check out his site at


Chris Templeton 0:00

I am really pleased to meet an interview, Mr. Joseph Raka Savo, you are a fascinating guy with an amazing background that has taken so many different facets of your life and taken them into being a writer. And so I want to welcome you, Joseph, thank you so much for being here.

Joseph Roccasalvo 0:25

Well, thank you for having me.

Chris Templeton 0:27

Joseph, talk a little bit about how you've gotten into being such an amazing writer was so many different stories and different forms from novels to collections of short stories. How did you get there?

Joseph Roccasalvo 0:46

Well, it was a long journey, I think it largely was a matter of recognizing who and what my deeper self loves. You know, I was trained as an academic, I was always exposed to storytelling, my mom used to sit by my bedside and create these wonderful fictional narratives before I went to sleep. And she would make them up as as she went along. And then later, I managed to discover books that you left behind. In fact, she left 29 volumes of memoirs, it was extraordinary. I mean, she kept she kept writing every day of her life. And, and then I found poetry and, and short stories and so forth. So there's no question that mother was a an icon of the mind of the imagination. And she urged me to always think, with my full faculties. When I went on to high school in college, it was largely very academic. When I was in high school, like, I did the classics, with the Jesuits. And then when I went on to college, I took a degree program in English literature and philosophy, then theology, and then Harvard, decided to grant me a scholarship and join their Global Studies program, show that I was able, as it was to travel in my mind, to all of these extraordinary places to be dealing with people east and west. My mind was always roving, but I have to say that most of my mentors, both the Jesuits and certainly by profs at Harvard, seek to appeal mostly to my intellectual ability, which they said was considerable. But I just took their word for it and decided to give them back what they wanted. However, I always felt something was missing. I always felt that my imagination was my strongest faculty, and I had never been able to give it full permission to kind of run. And so between teaching college and university, I had a year off. And I said to myself, after reading one famous writer, I can do this. No, I have, I have stories to tell. And so I began writing my first novel, fire in the wind this place. But what happened, Chris, was that it was like a tsunami of creativity. I mean, one book followed after another one story after another, it was as if my imagination had been stifled or stymied, and it was just eager to burn burst out. And so I started writing and traveling to the places I was writing. But I always stayed in touch with my academic background, because for me, I believe with the classical riders, that knowledge is power. And that the whole purpose, really, of a good rider is to produce books that are a testament to the harmonious shelf in which everything is operative. Okay. And so, on that show, I did it, I decided that I would address the full extent of who I was, and the full extent of my listeners, namely, their mental, emotional, spiritual and physical resources. I wanted to appeal to the full person. And so that's what I become a fiction writer. I left the university about 10 years ago, I risked spending full time writing even though I still mentor students, but I said to myself, if you don't venture it, there's nothing gained. So that's how you can find me this morning.

Chris Templeton 4:49

is an amazing story but you've glossed over way too much of it. There is there are so many nooks and crannies and other places. I think that It's like the tip of the iceberg. Talk about for a minute growing up with your mom with your mother, who has written who ended up writing 29 volumes of material. And what you found in there that really resonated with you in terms of how then you were putting these books together and put these these pieces of fiction together.

Joseph Roccasalvo 5:26

Question in all of the 29 bargains, she never crossed out. In other words, whatever she wrote, was what she wanted on the paper. That was before her. And she always said to me think things through before you put them down. Now she had no computer. She She was a terrific typist. But she wasn't able to revise as we can on a computer, we can always edit the text, what she did was to edit everything in her mind. So she gave me the feeling when I read her that this was as complete a statement as she really wanted. And also, the other thing that I got was extraordinary compression. In what she wrote, it was an enormous economy of language. She never wasted a word. I think mother's ad is was never say more than is never deny what is not. I mean, she was a great truth teller teller. Maybe it was because she was born into the sign of sagittarius. And I'm told that sagittarian women are very, very frank. Well, candor was one of my mother's great, great qualities. I mean, she's she's the only person I know who would wince when someone would use an improper past participle. If you said, I could have went, she will put her hand on her face. It wasn't very nice. But that's how much that's how much you love the English language. So I learned all of that from her. And even when she spoke to us, to my sister to my brother, and to me, she had such a cadence and a voice. In fact, she was a great lover of great speeches. Do you know that at the age of three years old, she taught me the Gettysburg Address, you're able to repeat Lincoln's it's a fact. And the only reason why I believe it is that we have a film of it. She taught me a phrase every morning and then repeated once before till, after several weeks, I was able to recite it out, I didn't know exactly what I was saying, three years old, but she would give me the gestures, intonation or voice and so forth. It's really quite charming to watch. But from an early age, I learned from heart that language was our deepest experience. It was the most precious thing we had. And that if you were going to use it, you have to use it as as its best. So she was my first and foremost role model.

Chris Templeton 8:00

What a role model My god, I just I'm, I so many things that you talked about, talk a little bit about what economy of language why that was important to her. And I assume that that's now important to you as well.

Joseph Roccasalvo 8:19

I think she felt as I do that, if you're wasted words, you would tire your audience. And so I keep that same rule in mind when I write every word counts. I warn my reader implicitly, if you don't pay attention, this will not come around twice. So what you see on the page is what you get, and you had better pay attention to it. So I never waste words. You know, it was extremely difficult by the way to maintain this high norm for writing well, because you know, as a teacher, and especially as a comparative story of religions, where I was teaching Buddhism and Taoism, and I was teaching the esoteric nature of Sufism and so forth. My students couldn't understand what I said, just by saying it once. So I have to repeat myself, chromatic with metaphors and similes. In other words, to teach Well, I had to learn how to be pedagogically redundant, I had to learn that that was not a value when I was writing, that is done and so you have to go. So here I was, you know, exercising, two identities, ones which said, you better help them to understand this difficult matter. You better know how to repeat yourself. And then the other case, where the with remark was in the back of my head, say it once, Joseph. Don't repeat yourself. So I've learned how to to one or the other, I'm not quite sure which one is up or two. Now, you seem to get me to want to say the same thing in the new way. And I'm happy to do it. Because I know there's a listening audience who's trying to understand my point of view. But as a general rule, when I write, there's an enormous economy of language. I don't repeat myself.

Chris Templeton 10:27

And so the other thing that you mentioned that your mom said was that language is one of our deepest expressions of who we are. Is

that right?

Joseph Roccasalvo 10:39

Absolutely. Yes, very definitely. It's the most human thing we do. You know, you can, you can put a typewriter in front of a chimp, and he may hang on, he may bang on the letters, but you won't get anything that equals something like the, you know, even the simple sentences of a very intelligent young child. I mean, you know, language, especially English. Now, I happen to be very lucky. I was bilingual. As a child, I spoke Italian. And then as I continued, in my studies, I had to pick up more and more languages I had had Latin, Greek and Hebrew, as quiet as my classical and biblical background. I knew attacking, the Jesuits taught me German and French. And then when I went to Harvard, I started picking up Indian languages. So what did that repertoire of languages teach me? In each case, I saw the efforts of writers to be very, very dexterous in the language that they chose. And, you know, every language is teach teaches you something. For instance, when I got to Bangkok, to do my research, for my doctoral thesis at Harvard, I had to learn to speak Thai. Now, Thai is a tonal language. And I had never learned tones before as a way of expressing meaning. So here was a whole new experience for me how language can express itself to different people in different ways. In other words, mother's early affirmation continued to be affirmed in through my undergraduate and graduate studies, especially when I was learning to read comparative religious texts in the original languages. So, you know, from a number of quarters, I am confirmed in recognizing that language and especially English is our most precious possession as human beings.

Chris Templeton 12:57

It is something that I don't think many people think about, but when you when you phrase it that way, oh, my God, it is really the way that we I mean, obviously, it's the way that we communicate. But I think what I hear you saying is, it's so much deeper than than just that, isn't it?

Joseph Roccasalvo 13:18

Absolutely. And it's, it's in the in your window. That is that we frequently understand what we really meant. One person said to me, Joseph, could you summarize in a couplet of rhyming couplet, what you're feeling is the language and I wrote this, what better useful words than to inspire? It's not by chance. Desire rhymes with fire? Why?

Chris Templeton 13:54

It's so it's so deep and yet,

Joseph Roccasalvo 14:00

Funny. It's funny. Yeah, I think there's something that's another thing that I've realized that truth frequently is, expresses itself, in wit, and in humor, because it's in the in the warmth that we last, you know, on some of the great comics that we've listened to what we still have on TV, are very adept at using language, not so much to be fully expressive, but to be sly. They are, and what that does is it forces the mind to reach for what's really being meant. Yes, I mean, how often, I think when women are extraordinary at this, if you say I mean, they listen in a completely different way from the way men Listen, but always listening for the, for the nuance. What I always refer to is the subtitle. Men can say all sorts of things but women, listen for what really being said, and I think in that regard, it's always good for a male writer to exercise a certain amount of femininity in the way he thinks, okay. In fact, in fact, oh, man, I think one of the great ways I know that I have grown as a writer is not in not only in so far as my become a better stylist, but I'm able to draw female characters, so that women have said to me, how do you know that about us? That's a very good question. And I know that that I said, Well,

we have our humanity in common.

Chris Templeton 15:47

And it's a huge compliment to and when you talk about being more feminine in writing, it's more of an intuitive thing, isn't it?

Joseph Roccasalvo 15:58

It is, it is. Well, it's often called polymorphous perversity is a funny way of putting it. But technically speaking, you know, when I first created by a female character, her name is Maya Ross, Nepal, and she's a Thai character I read the section where time is speaking to her ex lover. And I read it to one of my friends more leaning, who is one of my perfect and and great editors. And I said to read, how did I do more read? She said to be on son, Joseph, you've got it just right. There was a slightly, there was a slight notice sensuality in the way she said it that had me laughing. But anyhow, great women are great teachers. And if I know anything about them is because they've educated me. You know? I've often said, we're so sure with Sherlock Holmes, when he, when a Doctor Watson says to him, Sherlock, how do you know that? And he turns to Dr. Watson says the problem with you Watson, is that you see, but you don't observe. And I could probably say the same thing. The problem with you watching is that you hear that you don't listen. And both of those things, it's it's both both observing and listening, that you finally educate yourself. So let's

Chris Templeton 17:36

move on. Because one thing that really fascinates me about you, and and i'm sure how it's influenced your writing, is not only you're being taught by Jesuits, who are, I think the the simple way to describe them is Catholic academics. Is that a fair statement?

Joseph Roccasalvo 18:01

Yes, yes. And they are. I mean, they've been called, you know, the most intelligent group of priests to teach and right. I mean, there are many, many who are intelligent in any way. But the fact is that to become a judge with, at least, as I understood it, was at least 15 years of education before you could be ordained a priest. So there were very, very demanding, and in their academics. Yes, I think you're absolutely right about the judgments.

Chris Templeton 18:37

So so one of the things that you ended up doing was a lot of work on comparative religion. And I think that is so important in terms of determining who and what you are, in terms of your writing. It's just got to be such a huge piece of it.

Joseph Roccasalvo 19:01

Absolutely, you know, you're absolutely right. I'll tell you why. Whenever I start a project, even if I don't think I know that much about it, I'm not frightened by it. Because I always feel that I have at my fingertips, where I need to go to learn what I need to know. You know, Nietzsche once said, a man can put up with anyhow, if he has a y. What that means, basically, is that human beings are creatures of meaning. You know, we we need to work up with purposefulness in our lives. Most people who experience deep depression, you know, who even contemplate suicide is because they have no reason for living and what great the great religious traditions do. Whether it's Buddhism, Hinduism, Taoism, the Confucian Tradition, Islam, Judaism or finally Christianity, what they offer are patterns of meaning in which they say, all you need to do is internalize one of these. And you will not have to improvise, you will know what to do in a moral situation, you will know how to act, you will know how to behave, okay, that's what you will have, you will never be at a loss. And if you have more than one religious tradition, teaching you a meeting pattern, you will become a polyglot of the Spirit, you will be as it were, like someone who speaks more than one language. In this case, it will be more than one language of meaning. So what happens it's like a corral. It's like a corral of voices that I hear whenever I approach writing about anything. And I move in a very gingerly way from one tradition to the next. You know, there are times where, when I'm confronted by a particular problem, I have a feeling that the Buddha's experience is more adept at addressing what my real issue is. And I find the answer. And what are remember how of having studied, I can even go to the original texts, when it comes to an issue, for instance, about mercy. I think of Jesus, for instance, who, as far as I'm concerned, was one of the great storytellers of history. In fact, all you need to do go, all you need to do is to go to Luke's Gospel, to the chapter in which he deals with the parable of the prodigal son. And you have this extraordinary story of a boy who asks for his inheritance from his father, gets it and squanders it on loose living, and then come back, it comes back, penitent, hungry, and meals before his father's saying, I have sinned before heaven. And before you, I am not worried to be called your son. And the and the father has already been out there looking and searching the horizon for his son. And he's the maternal Baba. The father accepts the son's confession, but doesn't say a word to him about what he's become to just call his his servants over his head, let us have a feast. Get a coke, and a ring for my son. And let us rejoice and, and, and most the fatted calf, because my son who has lost this now found, what an extraordinary parable of Divine Mercy that is, and what an extraordinary powerful it is for human beings to be able to forgive, and to be forgiven. It's all there. In that one story I as I've said, If Jesus had just written that one story, he would lay lay claim to being one of the great storytellers of history. But you know, you will find similar stories in Taoism, and Islam and Buddhism and Hinduism, they're extraordinary. These are all patterns of meaning. So to answer your question more directly, when I sit down to write, I feel like I have a library that is protected by head, which I can draw freely, any book I want.

Chris Templeton 23:28

Does that help? It helps. And, you know, I think the thing that that comes through more than anything else in what you've just talked about is the importance of meaning. I talk a little bit about how that presents itself in your books and in your work?

Joseph Roccasalvo 23:48

Well, I'll give you a very good example of what will mean meaning is, or at least is how it should be expressed, it should be expressed by addressing all of the senses, whatever meaning is in my books, or any book, whatever meaning is expressed in it to my conscious, it's also expressed in through the five senses, you will hear it, taste it, smell it, you will see it, especially. In other words, it will address you as a complete person, you know, back in the 1950s. Probably You're too young to remember this, but you may want to Google it. From 1953 to 1972, there was a program on TV called you all there, and it was hosted by Walter Cronkite. And what it did was it created something totally, totally new and reporting on a camera started covering historical historical events as though they were breaking news. So you would be there at the death of Socrates the assassination Julius Caesar, Mark Antony's obituary or on Napoleon's rise to the throne as Emperor. In other words, it was an epic, it was an effort to engage you completely. And one of the things I learned in through the Jesuits was that when we were taught to meditate on the biblical experience, we were taught to engage our five senses. So for instance, when I was watching Moses part, the Red Sea, so the Israelites could pass through, I could hear the waters possum party, I can see them, I could feel the spray in my face, I could hear the the notes of all in the voices of the people as they walk through. I mean, it was an experience of you all there. So what I'm saying is, to speak of meaning is very abstract. I want to feel it. And and therefore, I want my readers to feel it. So if and when they enter one of my books, they will be completely engaged. One of the things I had said to be, didn't appear nice in the beginning, I remember giving a book to one of my neighbors, EDA to read. The next morning, I was out on the card and she saw me She said, you know, Joseph, I'm really mad at you. Just keep watching Watch. And as I said something, she said, No, she said, I saw to do a book before I went to bed, I couldn't fall asleep. She said, I get up in the middle of the night, and I read through right to the morning, because I have to turn the page. And there it is. That's the empirical evidence that you got, what you what you what you needed to get you, your your reader that the last paragraph?

Chris Templeton 27:00

Sorry, I apologize that That must be the greatest compliment ever.

Joseph Roccasalvo 27:09

It is. It is. But you know, let me just say something. Here's something I can say to you. I don't know we've been on the phone maybe for 35 minutes now. Don't feel like that? Absolutely not? No, no. The reason is because you and I have been hooked on meaning. And that means that we have transcended the space continuum. We are, we are, in some ways, in transcendent ways. Okay. And that's what makes human beings different. From the animal kingdom, we certainly participate in an analogy, but it's our capacity to transcend and to engage ourselves in moments of deep meaning, whether they be verbal, or even deeply emotional. Love can do the same thing. It can so engage us that we can to get ourselves. We are really living ecstatically.

Chris Templeton 28:11

You've mentioned a couple of words. One is inspired, which I often think of as being in spirit. And then ecstatically is another one. Talk a little bit about you have you have two types of books that you've written one, the mansions of limbo, and outward signs are both collections of stories, talk a little bit about those two books and, and kind of what people should expect from them? Well,

Joseph Roccasalvo 28:40

they're big glimpses of human experience, deeply engaging, but they have a beginning and a middle and an end that you can anticipate as you go along. Show that they're, they're not. They're not full symphonies, as for instance, the novels are there, what you might call, you might call them a Bach fugue, for instance, in which several short, intermittent musical phrases interbreed with one another, until finally, they're resolved. Let me give you an example. Please, if this actually happened to me, on what is called what's good or bad, actually, it's one of the last short stories in the book Twister phase. I was on a boat on Lake Como, after having checked on a ferry schedule. For one of my novels, I knew that he did change. I flew back to Italy and went to Coleman to get the ferry schedule so that my book would be accurate. I was taking the ferry back to my hotel, the hotel tournament, so on como and there was a older couple, they must have been in their late 70s, maybe even early The ages. It was very, very warm. I was sitting in the shade. I got up to the two of them. And Mary and john took my sheet. I offered it to them. And they were very grateful. I found myself getting off the ferry at the same stuff that they did. We will the three of us staying at the same hotel. So they did was they invited me to afternoon tea. So we started chatting. And I said to them, what brings you back here? You seem to have been here before? Oh, yes, we are celebrating our 50th anniversary. We met here and fell in love in this hotel 50 years ago. So I looked at john. I said, john, you know, 50 years ago, this was still a very expensive hotel. How do you afford it? So Mary said to him, telling Joseph how it happened. So he told me, he said to me, I just finished at University of London, I received a job to work at Deutsche Bank. On my first day going to work, I decided to take shortcuts, sure, a shortcut through the park. And the bus that had lost control of its brakes, kicked me and I was thrown about 40 feet. I somehow landed in the grass, managed to be alive. But I found myself in a cast. And in hospital for almost six months. What came of it was that I was awarded enough money so that I didn't have to work for the rest of my life. I still did. But once I got out of hospital, I decided that I would travel and and see life, because I realized you're only human once. So I use the money to go to Lake Como. And I found myself this in this hotel, and I met Mary with her. Her escort her her aunt. And I asked her to dance with her aunt's permission. When we went back to London, I started dating her and I married her. We are now throwing a 50th anniversary pottery party when we get back and Joseph, we've invited everybody. And we would like to invite you. So I turned to the two of them. And I said, Haven't you forgotten somebody who made it possible? Sure. They looked at me They said, No, we don't think so. I mean, we're inviting. You know, I said I don't mean me. I mean the bus driver.

Chris Templeton 32:35


Joseph Roccasalvo 32:39

So they looked at me. They decided to check where he lived. He was in a an old age home suffering to, to some degree from dementia. They got to know him. And on the day of the party, they invited him with their sons, and daughters and grandchildren. They will all bed john stood up. I was there, his church, to everyone. And he said, I want to thank you all for coming. But I especially want to thank my guest here. Andrew, who was the one who made it all possible. He was the bus driver. Granted, at one point, I got hurt. But then what's good or bad? Without the money that came from the settlement? I wouldn't have known my wife. There wouldn't have been any marriage or children. You would not have been here. Andrew, would you like to stand up and make a statement? He stood up and said, so glad I could be of help. Where the story ends is john and Mary said to me, Joseph, so glad you could be of help. And that's the way the story ends. That's exactly as it happens. I just simply wrote it down. For the stories are all like that. They're all things that have happened to me.

Chris Templeton 34:12

Ah, is there's so there's so many levels that this just that that story can hit you but when you when you look at it for you to recognize something as simple as the bus driver, and yet be able to plot plumb the depths as it were, of how that created such an amazing and meaningful story for a couple and all the people that were impacted by them. What a story.

Joseph Roccasalvo 34:49

Yes, you know, sometimes it can be very, very funny. Here's one that's somewhat farcical. I was taking my elevator up in my current building when unions were out And I, the numbers were not very clear. So I, I'm on. I was at that time on, I think floor 14. So I looked and I realized there was no 13th floor. Wow, that's curious. I think whether that's true of all the building, I mean, mine is considered to be a first class building. So you know, when I did, I visited 10 other buildings, Chris in my area or first class establishments, there was no 13th floor lobby. And when I did some research on it, I realized it's what the Greeks called Tris Chi, deca phobia, the fear of the number 10, and three, the fear of the number 13, you will not find the number 13 on any major building. And when I checked the 30, or what would have been the 13th floor in this current building, that would have meant 20 more apartments, my building is losing $120,000 a month in order to maintain a superstition. So I decided to write a short story called The 13th floor in which a group of architects call themselves the 13th Club, and they start putting up a building, which has a 13th floor, their intent is to put up only buildings that have turned 13 floors. So they put up the first building. It's beautifully accomplished, you know, on the 13th floor especially and people start moving in. Within a month of the floor being full, every every apartment being rented. funny things start to happen. railings give way people start plummeting into awnings below, screws are loose. Until they realize that someone with a schoolers has loosened all the screws on all of the apartments on the 13th floor in an effort to punish the architects for for, as it were not respecting the superstition. So it's it's a farce. It's quite funny. But it just started off with an observation of no 34 in my elevator. So that's another story. Sometimes it's not always profound, or serious. Sometimes it can be very funny.

Chris Templeton 37:55

So what we're running out of time, but I would like you to just pick one of your books that are novels and just talk about one of your favorite passages so that we can give people a real sense not only of the books that are a series of stories, but your your novels as well.

Joseph Roccasalvo 38:16

Okay, I think that's easily done right now, because the novel that I will address is actually a novella. It's just been cast into a treatment form and to a screenplay. And I think it will start being peddled to any to a production company. Of course, if there's anyone out there who is in charge of a production company and would be interested in reading the screenplay, or work with the premise unhappy send it on. It's the novel island of the assassin, the premises this a man who is a writer meets an older man, while they're traveling. They become very, very close friends. And Peter helps eldo get through a depression because he's lost his wife as they traveled together. When Aldo dies, he remembers Peter in his will, as the person who left him with a sense of hope. And when Peter has the real read to him, he finds out that he's been left an island by Aldo with a full staff and Avila, who work on the island are cook and a gardener, but also a man who is responsible for for protecting the island for securing its security. His name is Kyle Landry. Chi is a very mysterious man. He's always dressed in black. He wears a hoodie, and so forth. He works there in order to skies his real work, which is for the CIA. We're on. We're in On weekends, he kills or assassinate assassins. And what makes them so fascinating is that he uses

no gun

or knife. He kills them with two fingers by lunging for the carotid artery in the neck. Wow. So if you want a scene in which my readers would be intrigued, first time that Peter confernce chi and chi tells him that he is not kills but he doesn't murder and then does it with his two fingers. PETA says to him, how can you do that? If they The next thing you know that Peter is comatose on the ground, coming to kinda knows how to press the artery, either to deny oxygen temporarily or entirely. When Peter comes through to his to his full awareness, he sees Kai looking down with him. With a smile on his face. He suddenly realized that he is truly hired and assassin.

How's that received?

Chris Templeton 41:21

Love it, love it. Joseph Roccasalvo, you are an amazing, amazing man. And I just have such respect not only for the books that you've written, but all of the fabulous experiences from your mom and how your how she talked about having a language be brief and to the point to your education and your travel comparative religion. You are fascinating and I want to just have everybody know no uncertain terms that the place to go to find out more is Joseph Rocca Savo, aro cc a Sal, Joseph Raka, where all of his books are listed and also how to contact you, Joseph, what should people know what's the one thing you want people to know about you and your books.

Joseph Roccasalvo 42:24

I would like them to know that our common struggle as human beings is to engage in a life that issues in the harmonious cell in which the mind the emotions, the body and the Spirit are all engaged. Okay. They are the four rooms, which we must visit every day, in which we open up the windows and let the oxygen in. If they will go to my books, they will see and feel and experience human beings like themselves male and female and everything in between who are struggling to find that harmonious shelf. And maybe when they close the book, having experienced a sense of identity with one or another of my characters, maybe they will know how to do it for themselves.

Chris Templeton 43:34

What a fabulous way to close Joseph Roccasalvo author, intellectual, just an amazing man, thank you so much for your time. Everybody. You can find Joseph at Joseph, thank you so very much.

Joseph Roccasalvo 43:58

Thank you, Chris for being such a superb interview. I loved it.

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